Wallet Max Planet Positive Podcast™ with Investor Aaron Walker

​Join Bhuva Shakti, Founder & CEO at Wallet Max™, as she speaks with investors looking to leverage inclusion and impact without compromising growth of investments.

​This month, Bhuva's guest is Aaron Walker, the founder and Managing Partner at Ruthless for Good Fund, an early-stage fund that invests the most resilient, enterprising and often overlooked founders who are at the earliest stages of building companies that improve how we learn, work and live.

​About Aaron Walker:

Aaron is currently the founder and Managing Partner at Ruthless for Good Fund, an early-stage fund that invests the most resilient, enterprising and often overlooked founders who are at the earliest stages of building companies that improve how we learn, work and live.

​Aaron believes in the audacity of founders to help build companies that improve lives and create value. In his most recent company, Camelback Ventures, he founded an accelerator that has invested in over 180 founders, leading companies to subsequent funding rounds ($365M+) and profitable outcomes.

​Aaron has over 10 years of practice partnering with founders, including: counseling founders through disagreements; helping founders close funding gaps in weeks; or advising to resolve strategy and talent needs. His perspective on partnering with entrepreneurs is also informed by his time as a teacher (set the conditions for others to shine), and his time as an attorney (great service providers bring domain expertise and business acumen to their clients). If you’re curious about where he’s worked and learned, check out LinkedIn.  

​About Wallet Max:
​Wallet Max is an inclusive global community of corporate executives and venture capitalists with a mission to expand fundraising access for high-growth startups in the technology, AI, fintech, and climate sustainability sectors. Wallet Max's ecosystem of events and initiatives are prominent during the New York Fintech Week, the New York Tech Week, and the New York Climate Week every year.

Wallet Max's Planet Positive Podcast is a monthly interview with investors driving impact globally. Aligned with our mission to challenge the status quo, we showcase personal and professional journeys of diverse investors (Angels, VCs, PEs, Family Office, Corporate Venture) looking to leverage inclusion and impact without compromising growth of investments. Supporting sustainable innovations is good for people's wellbeing, planet survival, and financial profits.

​​About Bhuva Shakti:
​​​​Bhuva Shakti (she/her) is the futuristic founder and CEO driving sustainable innovation at Wallet Max, a global community of corporate executives, policy leaders, and venture capital investors expanding fundraising access for high-growth impact startups. 

Join Bhuva and have a seat at the table to be on the forefront of planet positive investing. Get Tickets to an Upcoming Event Here.

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Learn more about Wallet Max and our mission on the website.

Transcript

Bhuva:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to another edition of Wallet Max Planet Positive Podcast™. I'm Bhuva Shakti, based in New York, and the founder of Wallet Max. We are a global community of startups, investors, and executives focused on increasing sustainable funding access, especially in climate tech, fintech, deep tech, and AI sectors. We interview one impact investor every month for our podcast. We invite them to share their background, but more importantly, what differentiates them from the crowd? How do they prioritize impact along with profits and planet? We deep dive into their personal and professional journeys and their mission to uplift.

Today, we are speaking with Aaron Walker, the founder and managing partner at Ruthless For Good Fund, an early-stage fund that invests the most resilient, enterprising, and often overlooked founders who are at the earliest stages of building companies that improve how we learn, work, and live. Aaron believes in the audacity of founders to help build companies that improve lives and create value. In his most recent company, Camelback Ventures, he founded an accelerator that has invested in over 180 founders, leading companies to subsequent funding grounds, upwards of $5 million and profitable outcomes.

Let me now hand over to Aaron and invite him to say a few words about his background and career path. Over to you, Aaron.

Aaron:

Thank you, Bhuva. It's a pleasure to be here and excited to be a part of this conversation on Wallet Max. I mean, you explained a little bit of what I've been doing recently. I guess I'll just start by saying that I started my career as a teacher. I taught high school English in Philadelphia, and that was really a pivotal moment in my life. I think what I got from that experience was, A, just that learning of every day walking into a classroom, having a plan and then having to figure out how you're going to adjust. And that's a lot of what entrepreneurship is like. It's like you have a plan, you have a vision, and then you have to deal with reality.

And so from teaching, I've gone on to do a bunch of other things. I went to law school. I practice law. I work in government and philanthropy. But in the last 12, 15 years, I've been in this impact investing space. That's a great introduction.

Bhuva:

Thanks for sharing that, Aaron. And I believe teaching and talking to founders is also very relatable because more of what we do there is execute according to a plan, but also mentoring, being receptive of feedback is very important for founders from investors like yourself. So what would you say your unique secret sauce is? Is it more like you've transitioned so many careers with so much success? What was the pivotal moment in your life that made you choose impact investing that you've been doing for about 10, 15 years at the moment?

Aaron:

I don't know if there's a moment where I chose impact investing. I think it chose me.

I think what I have been clear about for a good portion of my adult life is the impact that I wanted to have. And I've tried to be open to different ways of expressing that impact as my career has gone on. And so I think that's how it's taking me to teaching and taking me to the law and taking me to philanthropy and taking me to government and taking me to impact investing. And if you had asked me 20 plus years ago when I was graduating college, would I be running a fund 20 years later? I couldn't have imagined it, but what I think I've been open to is just the opportunity to achieve the mission that I want to achieve, but through different avenues.

Yeah, the goal is impact and mission-oriented work, whatever pathway leads to it.

Bhuva:

So thanks for sharing that. And that's a great way of looking at things. As long as you have a goal and a mission, probably whichever pathway helps us achieve that. Now, why do you typically focus only on overlooked founders at Ruthless for Good Fun? Where do you see opportunities and challenges, especially a very critical sector that's early-state startups, which sometimes may be successful, sometimes may not be? If you can, could you elaborate that?

Aaron:

Absolutely. They're one of our investors and someone who's been a mentor to me for a long time is a, Mitch and Freada Kapor. Many years ago, I think it was Mitch who said that "Genius is equally distributed, but access is not," or some version of that statement. I really believe that.

If you believe that genius is everywhere, then in investing, when you see where most investment goes, what you realize is that 98% of investment goes to, at least in the US, one portion of our population, white men. So that then seems to suggest that nobody else has good ideas. Nobody else is investible.

Really, your job as an investor is to find opportunity before other people do. I think for us, when we say that, it's not that we see those folks as a charity case. It's that we think, Oh, we need to do it for some moral reason. We do it and we believe it because as investors, we're trying to find opportunity, and we think that there's a whole set of founders and communities that are ready to build great things. They have an itch that they want to scratch. They have problems that they see based on their lived experience and not just they have, but a lot of people have. And so for us as investors, we're like a lot of investors, we're chasing impact, but we're also chasing alpha, and we think we can find it there.

Bhuva:

Yeah, exactly. So I relate to what you mentioned very much it because I focus a lot on women and women of color startups, how I can help them get the opportunity. It's not about, do you have the better idea? Are you fundable? If you don't even have the access to even showcase what you can offer, then how are you going to even determine am I fundable or not? So very relatable because I saw a gap in that sector where women, like you mentioned, we had 2.8% funding, I believe, before pandemic, after pandemic, it has gone down to 1.X percentage.

We see funding to women, and that's one of the areas I am focusing as well. With so much going on in the current political landscape in US, as well as globally with economy and so much disruption in technology, technology and other global wars and things of that happening. There are a lot of big corporations and even private investors. Some of them are shifting priorities. I don't know if it's for the short term or long term, but what do you think from your perspective that continuing to invest in value-based startup is still important for the long term? How do you balance profits and return on investment, and especially also, I mentioned earlier, early stage status, which could take a little bit longer on the other way.

Aaron:

Yeah, absolutely. I think all companies are expressing some values, right? So investing in value-based startup, I think it's like prosocial values because implicitly, folks who are not values-based, what's it mean? They're investing without values? I don't know. I don't know if I don't know if that's true, although maybe they are. I think if the conventional wisdom is to invest and believe that people on planet are disposable, then what do we have left? I think for me, investing with a values-based lens is to say that the point of business is, yes, to make money, but also to serve the community. I certainly don't want to live in a world where we, as people in the planet that we live on, are disposable because at some point there will be nothing left. I think it's imperative for the long term because that's how we continue to thrive, let alone survive as humanity. I don't see any other way to do it. I certainly don't want to find out the alternative. 

Bhuva:

Yeah. There is no planet B yet that we have found out that looks like our planet, which means we have to make good use of it. And also Like you rightly mentioned, it's not about whether someone has value or not good or bad. Everyone has some values. But then also if you are serving some customer through your product or service in a business, if you don't look at people who are going to buy your products, how diverse they are, how are you going to deliver a product and service that can suit their needs? So it's anyway going to be better for business, better for community, your stakeholders, your customers. So in this scenario, how has success been for you? Do you have some case studies or examples of companies you've invested personally from your fund? And additionally, also, I want to hear about a mistake that you have made. And how did you navigate? Are there any valuable lessons?

Aaron:

Yeah, mistakes made every day. In terms of the successes, we're investing out of a fund one at Ruthless For Good. Our fund one is $20 million. And so we're four years into investing in this fund, so it's still really early days for us. So there are a lot of companies that we're excited about, and they're just at the beginning of their journey. I'm happy to talk about a couple of them.

One is is a company we just invested in a few months ago called ESAI, ESAI. They are a technology company that is using AI to make college advising accessible to everybody. So the woman who started it, her name is Julia Dixon. And Julia was one of those high-priced college counselors, $300, $400, $500, $600 per hour. serving very wealthy families, helping their young folks be able to get that college advising that they need to get into their dream school. And what she realizes is everybody should have this. So she's created a platform using AI that for what she used to charge for one hour, now a family can have access to it for the whole year for less than $300 to technology-based advising and coaching. And so that's a company that we're really excited about, and I think is one of our earliest successes.

There's another company called Acclinate. They're based in Birmingham, Alabama, and they're really trying to help pharmaceutical companies and folks who do clinical research get more representation into their clinical trials. If you think about it, medicine -- we all take medicine. We all take certain therapeutics. And oftentimes, those therapies don't work for all communities. And part of the reason is that we don't have full representation in those trials. And for a very good historical reason, there have been certain communities, particularly the African-American community in the US, who are very reticent to participate because oftentimes, their bodies have been used and abused in the name of science. And so people don't want to participate in that. But at the same time, there's drugs like albuterol, which is the most common drug for asthma, that is basically 50% ineffective in about half the basis in which it's used. So a lot of people are taking this drug and it's not doing anything for them. And part of the reason is that when those drugs were being developed, there wasn't full representation in those trials. And so that's another company that I think is one of our earlier successes. We led the seed round, they've raised an A round, and we've been basically doubling revenue since we've invested.

So I'd say those two.

 In terms of lessons learned or mistakes, I think that without naming any company in particular, I think if I had to characterize the mistakes that we've made, I think it comes down to trying to keep bias at bay. How do you... We as investors have our own stories about who we are, about how the world works. And I think when I look back at some of the investments where I was like, I shouldn't have done that, or maybe that was a mistake. It wasn't anything about the founder or anything like that, but it was me. It was me, say, having an emotional need to tell myself, I'm a certain person, and this investment is really helping me lean into a story that I have about myself that maybe clouded me from looking at some of the actual hard facts of what was going on in that business. I think that's the common theme. At our fund, one of the things that we do when we're looking at investments is before we really get too deep into it, is we ask the lead investor, a set of personal questions about what bias do they think that they are coming into the situation with and then try to work with each other as a team to quiet that so that those things don't cloud our judgment as we're going through the diligence process. I say all that to say that every mistake was never about somebody else or about something that was going on in the business. It was always about me.

Bhuva:

Yeah. And you learn and improve as you go along. So that's the way, not only investing, but life works. And one thing resonated with me with the two points you shared in the success story. One is AI-based EdTech solution. So I really have to ask this question, is AI a hype or are you trying to eliminate hype out of the investments that you are making? So that's one I wanted to hear. And the second thing is on the healthcare scenario, the startup that you've invested in. I also can relate to it quite a lot where women were also not participating in a lot of trials and that they also had challenges. Then women of color, still much more a minority. Are there things that you are doing in these two areas?

Aaron:

Absolutely. I mean, look, AI is everywhere. I think 8 out of 10 companies that we've seen in the last six months are AI companies or AI-first companies. I think part of the challenge is to understand Where is AI just marketing? And then also what's the opportunity there? I think the things that we're most excited about is not the general intelligence that can do everything, but where can AI actually help drive the human experience? I think Eric Schmidt, who's the former CEO of Google, wrote a New York Times op-ed about this recently, looking at how we think and talk about AI in the US versus how it's being talked about and thought about abroad and how in non-US countries, countries, the countries that are really focused on using AI to help farmers have better yields, to do things that improve the human experience, that there's a lot less resistance around AI. There's a lot more embracing of AI. I think that's our viewpoint around this is there are folks who think that the Holy Grail is artificial general intelligence. I think what we think is that we want AI to be able to drive and improve the human experience. 

Bhuva:

Yeah, and I've heard stories also in the global south, people don't have access to even get digital computers or devices into their city or village or country in some cases. And then some of this AI and healthcare that you mentioned are helping little bit healthcare to be given to some of those underrepresented communities where AI is playing a really vital role versus us trying to talk about AGI.

So I so much relate to it. And to follow up on my second question on women and women of color, are there any other initiatives that are going on in your portfolio?

Aaron:

I will say we've made 21 investments, 13, 14 of this CEOs we've invested in are women. 18, 19 of our founders, CEOs are people of color. I think we're living that just through who we're investing in. Then there's some really exciting stuff that we're seeing out there. I actually had a conversation yesterday with an entrepreneur who is building a health tech companynthat's focused on women's health around on their vulvas, and she's doing some really amazing work there. And so I think that there's just a lot of stuff that we're seeing, and we're trying to get into this more and more.

Bhuva:

Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that. That's a really overlooked space, and more we are focusing on people of color, women, and other underrepresented communities. It's going to only better the business because the people you serve are diverse in nature. So can you share any advice and resources for someone getting into venture capital as an investor, especially if they don't have the traditional path, if they are not part of the Insiders Club, like how you had a very nonlinear path?

Aaron:

Yeah. I think everyone is going to take their own path. I would just offer two things, one like tangible, one maybe just philosophical, one on the philosophical side, I'd say is a developer perspective on something and put that perspective out there and try to cultivate that perspective on the world. And the reason I say that is investing is more than just technical. There's a lot of folks who can build the model, who can do the spreadsheet. But really what you're trying to do as an investor is you're trying to say, I see something that other people don't see, and I can go and find people or entrepreneurs who can live into this perspective, who are building solutions into this perspective that I have.

And so I would say do that because you become attractive to funds who are looking for people to come with a set of ideas about where opportunity lies. And so I would say, yes, learn how to build a model. Yes, learn some of the technical things. But I'd actually say, have a perspective on the world and where you think opportunity is, because I think that's what's going to attract a firm to want to bring you on, because they're going to say, Oh, that person sees something that other people don't and we want that on our team. Even when I talk to LPs, I think one of the things that I sense that they're looking for in managers is a manager who has a perspective on the world about where the opportunity is because they have a lot they can invest in a lot of different things. So I think that that's one.

And then two is from a technical standpoint. There's a couple of great groups out there. One is called Impact Capital Managers, where we, Ruthless for Good, are members of that group. They do a fellowship for…I don't know if it's just MBAs. It's called the Mosaic Fellowship. You can get partnered with the VC fund for an internship. And I think that's a great entry point into VC. Obviously, I think that's more of like a you're in school path, but just to offer one idea.

Bhuva:

Is it possible for experienced corporate professionals to transition into venture capital, like investing or even non-investing roles, because not necessarily everyone has to be a LP or a GP or an investment analyst?

Aaron:

Yeah, absolutely. And the reality is that most of the work comes after writing the check. That's the part we're also to focus on writing those checks, and that's obviously a key component. But what happens after you write the check? You need folks to understand how to help companies with go-to-market, how to help companies hire and build great teams and find executives, how to help companies with their engineering and technology stacks. So I think that even marketing and communications, companies need all those things and firms need all those things. And so I think if you have those skill sets, firms are looking for those things for themselves. But also for their portfolio companies.

Bhuva:

Yeah, you rightly said, because the investor founder fit is very critical while you are looking for founders. Founders are also looking for the right investors because the day you give the check is day one with them. So you need to plan for what's coming ahead instead of just focusing on the transaction of fundraising and the check itself.

So other than impact capital managers, do you have any other communities you rely on where you connect with other investors or investors, but not really active in the ecosystem or maybe a little bit passive. 

Aaron:

Yeah. I mean, one community I'm a part of is called Gratitude Railroad. I think you've chatted with Emma lately from Gratitude, but I think that's a great... I mean, they're an investment platform, but they also are an investment community. And so I would offer them up as a place where people can explore being a part of a community there. The Aspen Institute has some really great programs for folks who are interested in finance and interested in investing. And so I will look there as well.

There's also some other groups that where investors get together. And so I know this week is Art Basel. There's the Art Basel community. So even places where it doesn't sound specifically for investors, I think that there are investors who meet in those places. There are folks who use those platforms as activations and community organizing opportunities.

Bhuva:

Yeah, I think if you are able to connect with traditional and non-traditional pathways, communities, then anyone can try to venture into venture capital investing or non-investing. It's not only for a certain type of people or certain backgrounds, I think. That's a great message I'm taking away from here. And I just want to quickly also to touch upon some of the emerging trends you are excited about. There's so much happening every day. There is a new trend. What is something that you are focused on? If there are key elements of your investment thesis that you are trying to tweak based on some of these emerging trends, would you be able to share that with us? 

Aaron:

Yeah. Our thesis at Ruthless for Good Fund is that we are seeking to invest in the infrastructure that supports human needs. And we want to work with entrepreneurs who have a unique insight into the human condition. And we think when we do those two things, when we are focused on infrastructure and tools that support humans with people who actually have a unique insight into what people need, that when we do those two things, that the outcome is companies that are able to be defensible because humans are flourishing. So I think that's our core thesis at Ruthless for Good Fund. And I think that for us, that means then we're looking for entrepreneurs who meet those particular criteria in terms of your question on trends.

We touched on a little bit earlier, and I know it sounds trite to say in this time, but I think AI is the biggest trend that we're all facing. It's transforming every single industry that we're in. I think for us, again, where we're most excited in the trend that we're seeing is our opportunities. There's a lot of discussion where we're talking about AI destroying jobs and destroying opportunity for humans. I think where we're most interested is, and what we're seeing. We're actually seeing a trend in the entrepreneurs that we're finding are those who see AI as an opportunity to advance the human experience, to make sure that a family that can't afford a high priced college advisor can have access to that through technology so that a young person who might have their parents may have never gotten a bachelor's degree can go to college.

We're working with another entrepreneur in the EdTech space where they're building technology to help schools in their back office because a lot of schools are starting to get resource constraint because of cut to public education. And so that's taking adults out of the classroom into these administrative areas. But with technology, we can actually put more adults back into the classroom. We can give adults time to interface with kids more than they have before. And so we're looking for those opportunities.

Bhuva:

Yeah. There is a lot of layoffs going on. You might have heard in the news every day. And the headline is, okay, because of AI, we are laying off people or we are not recruiting new people. But when we talk about AI as something that can democratize access and bring more opportunities to people who have not had those opportunities traditionally in the past, then that gives a different view of AI itself. So then people are to embrace it better. So with this being said, is there a unique value proposition for your fund as compared to other early stage funds or accelerators or broader angel and VC ecosystems in the US or anywhere else? What would be something that's very uniquely positioned that a founder can come only to your fund?

Aaron:

Yeah, absolutely. I think here's what we bring to the table as a fund, which is, I had a previous Accelerator, Camelback Ventures. There, I've been able to build up a network of partners that can really work with entrepreneurs. I think part of our value is, yes, we can write the check, but B, we have been working with really early stage entrepreneurs for over a decade. We've gained some really great insight and skill mindset into helping a new company understand what are the nuts and bolts that need to happen in those first 18 months, 24 months, to really get a company going, particularly around talent. I think one of our superpowers is helping teams build really great teams because no founder can do it by themselves. And what we've often seen is that where the most time and money is wasted is in hiring the wrong folks.

And so I say in particular, we have a deep expertise in being able to help entrepreneurs get the right folks around them, whether that be full-time team members or mentors and advisors.

Bhuva:

Yeah, It's not about the idea, it's about the execution and the right people that you have on your side that also includes investors. So when you work with early-stage startups, there sometimes could be longer commercialization cycles. So How do you successfully scale EdTech and future of work startups that you're focused on in the social innovation space? Is that a challenge you faced or you have a framework that have been executing successfully for the last 10 years? 

Aaron:

Absolutely. I think there are some investors who shy away from EdTech and future of work and maybe even health care startups because of the long sales cycles. I think we go into an understanding of those sales cycles are going to be long. I think for us, For us, what we've learned is how do you understand and how do you build a business where the contract size is big enough to justify those sales cycle. Where we've seen companies struggle is you have a nine-month sales cycle for a $5,000 contract.

In the meantime, unless you've raised tons of money, in the meantime, you're burning through cash, you're having issues with cash flow. But what we've seen the most successful companies do is figure out the right ICP that is far enough up the value chain where the contract sizes are $50K, $100K, $200K. And then having a six-month sales cycle, it's a pain, but it starts to make business sense. You can actually do it. So part of what we try to do is really help our entrepreneurs and work with them to try to understand where can we build this business model, where it can make sense. If we're going to have to wait six months, we can do that because the contract sizes are justifiable.

Bhuva:

Yeah, rightly said. And that's from an investor perspective, because we are able to wait for six more months for a $50K or $100K contract. The founders are, in the meantime, very nervous, anxious. They want to show revenue, they want to meet milestones, they want to keep going. So how do you balance that with your founders?

Aaron:

Yeah. I mean, look, I think what we try to do is just try to give them examples of how it's worked for other companies so they can see what's normal and what's not. But also we try not to disavow of that sense of urgency. We want them to have some of that drive, but also to really say, in those moments, how can we refine what our customer success and our engagement strategy looks like so that maybe we can take that six-month cycle and turn it into a four-month cycle? Are there some cheat codes that we can use to speed clean things up?

But also are there financing options that we can access? There are a lot of... Not a lot, but there are some places where you can get financing based on contracts that you have. So maybe you sign a contract, you're not going to get paid for it on six months. You can go to a bank, you can go to their institutions like Mission Driven Finance, where you can go and you can get a loan based on those contracts so that you can smooth some of that cash flow while you wait to get paid on those contracts.

Bhuva:

Yeah, that's a great advice because that balances or bridges the gap where investors have the need to get better clients, but also the founders have the urgency to prove to the investors that they are delivering. That's a great message where I want to move on to asking you about how can people get in touch with you and your fund? How can founders find you and what would they have to have in place before they can have a conversation or a meeting with you?

Aaron:

Absolutely. Well, our website is ruthlessforgood.com. You can find us there. You can also find me on LinkedIn, Aaron Walker. You can also email me. It's just my first name, @ruthlessforgood.com. So folks can find me there. And then in terms of what we need, we do pre-seed and seed investing. I would say at pre-seed stage, we're looking for companies that have some level of an MVP that they are piloting. You don't need to have 100 pilots going, but a couple. Is there something, even if it's stuck together with tape and glue, that you put it in front of people and they're using it and you're getting some feedback?

Then with our seed stage companies, we're looking for a product that has some level of a validation through pilots where you're trying to start to position yourself for scale. You're not there at the scale point yet, but you're past the demonstration point. If you have a deck, that's great. It could be slides, it could be a two-pager. We don't have any hard rules on the documents that people need to have. 

Bhuva:

And for pre-seed, if they have pilots in place, do they need to have customer and revenue traction or customer traction is okay with LOIs or letter of entrance or contract in place? What is the criteria there?

Aaron:

Yeah. I mean, look, paid pilots are always better because one of the things that... My suggestion would be that all entrepreneurs get paid for their pilots, even if you're not getting paid what you think the price actually is.

I think part of what you're trying to validate is, is someone willing to take money out of their pocket and put it into my pocket. To the degree that you can do that, I think that's a stronger pilot because, yes, you're validating the product, but you're also validating the value proposition. And I think the way that you validate the value proposition is that people are willing to actually pay something for it. And that can also provide a baseline for your pricing model or the willingness to pay where you can go less or more. And in terms of seed stage, there is a lot of definition.

Bhuva:

Let's say in US, it's different, Europe, it's different, even in US, when you talk to different types of investors, some consider seed different from Series A. What is your definition of seed?

Aaron:

Yes. I think our definition of seed is, again, that you have a product at the seed stage that has been validated through pilots. Where there is revenue, I'd say at the seed stage, you don't need to have a million dollars in revenue, but $100,000, $200,000, $300,000 in revenue. Handful of customers to be able to show, again, people are willing to pay for this and that you are beginning to position the company for scale.

Bhuva:

Yeah, very rightly said. So Sometimes there is a definition of seed in terms of revenue you generate. Sometimes people get caught in the amount of money they have to raise. They say they are raising Series A funding, but they might not have enough revenue traction. So it's good to position that pre-seed and seed. You need to have some pilots, even paid pilots, a couple of them, even less than the pricing that you are aiming for. But in seed, if you have about $200, $300 or at least less than a million dollars revenue with some paid customers for product. That will be a great definition.

Aaron:

And I would just say, just started to interrupt, but I would just add that, A, that's just us. Other firms have different definitions. And two, the There is no hard and fast rule because it depends on the industry that you're in. So for instance, we've invested in some Fintech companies. Fintech is highly regulatory. It takes a while to build a customer base in a fintech.

It takes a while to start to generate revenue, particularly if you're doing something consumer-facing because it's so highly regulated. So there have been instances where we have made a seed investment in a fintech company that didn't have any revenue. But because we understood the nature of Fintech, we weren't necessarily expecting revenue at the seed stage for a Fintech. But say in ed tech, at the seed stage, we do expect revenue.

Bhuva:

Yeah, rightly said. And also health tech, it could take longer. And like we earlier mentioned, if there is a contract that's coming up that's high value, then probably revenue may not matter at the moment. So thanks for sharing that, Aaron. And I think we are close to time. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the audience before we wrap up? We have investors, executives, and startup of founders in our community.

Aaron:

Yeah. I think the thing I would add is in working with entrepreneurs, the thing that we talk a lot about with them is how do you hold on to the big vision but figure out what's the first little bit that you can achieve? And I think sometimes it can be hard. It can be hard to see the whole pie, to know what the whole vision is, and not want to go for it all at once. And I think just going for a piece of it doesn't mean you're giving up the rest of the vision. It's just a first step. And so I'd say, whether you're an investor, whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're an executive, whatever your big vision is, hold on to it and then just figure out what the first step is. And then the first step will take you to the second step.

Bhuva:

Yeah, always small steps, first step, then iterate, improve as you go along. Don't try to have that big vision to be executed in full to move forward. So that's a very great message to end our conversation with. Thanks so much for taking time. Great talking to you. And I'll share everything you shared with our community as well.

Aaron:

Bhuva, it was a pleasure. Thank you for having me.